Why Silicon Valley Needs Immigration

Expanded deportations, a virtually shutdown asylum process, accrued scrutiny of H1-B visa applicants—immigration argumentation has been overhauled nether nan latest Trump administration. And, conscionable past week nan Trump management said it would statesman revoking nan visas of immoderate Chinese students who are presently studying astatine U.S. schools. On today’s episode, we dive into nan impacts that these changes could person connected nan tech manufacture from nan talent pipeline to early innovations.

Mentioned successful this episode:
The Trump Administration Wants to Create an ‘Office of Remigration’ by David Gilbert
US Tech Visa Applications Are Being Put Through nan Wringer by Lauren Goode

You tin travel Michael Calore connected Bluesky astatine @snackfight, Lauren Goode connected Bluesky astatine @laurengoode, and Katie Drummond connected Bluesky astatine @katie-drummond. Write to america astatine uncannyvalley@wired.com.

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Michael Calore: A speedy statement earlier we statesman today. We recorded this section earlier nan Trump administration's recreation prohibition connected citizens from 12 countries from entering nan United States and earlier its proclamation to suspend each caller student visas for students enrolling astatine Harvard University. Although we will get to student visas rather a spot successful this episode. How's everybody doing this week?

Lauren Goode: I'm good. I conscionable sewage backmost from Katie's motherland, Canada.

Michael Calore: Oh.

Lauren Goode: Yeah.

Katie Drummond: Lauren and I were successful Vancouver together.

Lauren Goode: We were.

Katie Drummond: Although I saw her for astir apt 15 minutes successful nan span of for illustration 5 days. I'm doing okay. I also, arsenic we conscionable established, was successful Vancouver pinch Lauren astatine Web Summit. I took a red-eye location connected Thursday nighttime and it was 3 hours precocious and truthful that was a lot.

Michael Calore: Yikes.

Katie Drummond: And past Lauren, correct earlier we started signaling conscionable told maine that I person a bobble head, truthful I'm conscionable grappling pinch that feedback.

Lauren Goode: I did not opportunity bobblehead, I said you had personage power because your caput presents good connected camera. I don't know. Mike, really are you doing?

Katie Drummond: Yeah, really are you doing, Mike?

Michael Calore: I'm staying retired of this one. Also, I person a gigantic head. I tin show you that I deterioration a size 8 fitted cap, which is nan largest size that they make.

Katie Drummond: Do you want to cognize what size I wear?

Michael Calore: Yes.

Katie Drummond: I person to shop astatine a specialty chapeau store. Because my caput really doesn't... I can't wear.

Lauren Goode: What is this shop called?

Katie Drummond: I can't deterioration normal hats.

Lauren Goode: Is it called Bobblehats?

Katie Drummond: No, I'm going to look it up. It's from Oddjob Hats. The past chapeau I bought was called Big Running Hat. Just Big Running Hats.

Lauren Goode: Do you besides person 1 called Big Walking Hats?

Katie Drummond: Probably. Probably.

Lauren Goode: Oh.

Michael Calore: Oh, it's excessively much.

Lauren Goode: All right.

Michael Calore: Should we get into it?

Katie Drummond: Let's do it.

Lauren Goode: Let's do it.

Michael Calore: This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley, a show astir nan people, power, and power of Silicon Valley. Today we're going to beryllium talking astir nan Trump administration's policies astir migration and nan effect that those policies are poised to person connected nan tech industry. Since time 1 of nan existent management migration argumentation has been overhauled, nan asylum process was virtually unopen down, nan obscure Aliens Enemy Act was invoked to deport hundreds of people, and birthright citizenship is being challenged successful nan US Supreme Court. Visas person been nether accrued scrutiny. WIRED precocious reported really nan H-1B visa exertion process is becoming much hostile, and past week nan management said it would statesman revoking nan student visas of immoderate Chinese students who are presently studying astatine US schools. So coming we're going to dive into nan impacts that these changes could person connected nan tech manufacture from nan talent pipeline to early innovations. I'm Michael Calore, head of Consumer Tech and Culture present astatine WIRED.

Lauren Goode: I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a elder analogous astatine WIRED.

Katie Drummond: And I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's world editorial director.

Michael Calore: I want to commencement america disconnected by focusing connected really nan Trump management has been handling student visas. Just past week, Secretary of State Marco Rubio announced that nan management would commencement to, "Aggressively" revoke visas for Chinese students. The State Department said it would attraction connected students from captious fields and those pinch ties to nan Chinese Communist Party, but besides that it would conscionable mostly heighten nan scrutiny crossed nan board. The vagueness of these guidelines has sent students, parents and universities into an affectional tailspin. What do we make of these latest developments?

Lauren Goode: So location were really 2 directives that went retired past week and I'm judge we're going to perceive more, but I deliberation they're some worthy noting. The first was that a directive was sent to US embassies astir nan world telling them to region immoderate caller interviews for student and visitant visas, and that included nan F, M and J visas, until further notice. And this full thought was that it was successful mentation for an description of societal media screening and vetting. So fundamentally nan State Department is going to beryllium looking overmuch much intimately astatine students' online activity, societal media activity, and see that arsenic a portion of their question and reply process erstwhile they're applying for a visa to nan US. That was already a portion of nan exertion process, but now it's conscionable going to beryllium expanded. We don't really cognize what that means. The different was nan revoking of visas for Chinese students arsenic you mentioned, Mike. And really I deliberation what this does is it adds different instrumentality to this existent Cold War of sorts that we're having pinch China, whether it's pinch nan tariffs aliases whether it's measures for illustration these, it's clear that nan existent management wants to person nan precocious hand. And what we've reported astatine WIRED is that if this continues and nan courts let it, this would each person a important effect connected higher acquisition because astir a 4th of nan world student organization successful nan US is from China. And also, this is thing I deliberation a batch of group don't realize, I personally didn't recognize until I started doing much investigation into this, world students often salary afloat tuition aliases adjacent to it erstwhile they travel present into nan United States for school, which makes it an economical lifeline for a batch of these universities and besides successful immoderate ways helps offset nan costs for home students, US students who are getting scholarships aliases getting partial simplification successful tuition and that benignant of thing. I do deliberation successful wide it's vulnerable territory to commencement targeting students nether a circumstantial nationality for these alleged nationalist information reasons. There are going to beryllium questions astir really effective it is longterm, but besides really this could perchance weaken nan US exertion assemblage successful nan longterm.

Michael Calore: And this choking disconnected of talent coming into investigation institutions and into jobs successful nan United States is besides happening astatine a infinitesimal erstwhile China and nan US are presently progressive successful an AI arms race. In January, nan Chinese AI institution DeepSeek showed disconnected a reasoning exemplary that is demonstrably and seemingly conscionable arsenic powerful arsenic ChatGPT, but was developed for a fraction of nan cost. So nan US decidedly needs to support bringing successful apical AI talent, but really are these restrictions connected student visas going to perchance style nan maturation of nan AI manufacture successful nan US?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, this is thing that erstwhile nan news started to trickle retired past week, we astatine WIRED were thinking, "Okay, this is really successful our wheelhouse." We screen AI truthful closely, we person for years, and automatically nan mobility is what does this mean for nan AI race? We ended up reporting a communicative past week, it was myself, a fewer different WIRED folks, Kate, Louise, and Will, and immoderate of nan sources that we said to were pointing retired nan contradiction that exists present successful nan White House saying that AI is 1 of its apical priorities and past trying to nonstop nan group who are doing this benignant of research, this captious investigation for america present successful nan United States, location backmost to their location countries, aliases not letting them into nan first place. And it's immoderate US colleges, I would opportunity astir apt a adjacent number of them, world students do dress up nan mostly of doctoral students successful departments for illustration machine science. One of our colleagues, Kate Knibbs, talked to personification astatine nan University of Chicago who said that overseas nationals accounted for 57% of recently enrolled machine subject Ph.D. students past year. We cognize that immigrants person founded aliases co-founded astir 2 thirds of nan apical AI companies successful nan United States. That's according to a 2023 study by nan National Foundation for American Policy. And this is thing that's been going connected for a agelong time. I had this absorbing speech pinch a well-known economist past week. His sanction is William Lazonick. I was asking him his thoughts connected this crackdown connected student visas, and he made an important observation, which is that overseas students pursuing those STEM careers person really been captious to nan very beingness of postgraduate programs successful those fields. And immoderate of this is cultural. Back successful nan 1980s, location was this large displacement that was happening successful nan US astir money basically. It was nan era of Reaganomics and awesome is good, and American students were gravitating towards careers successful finance. At nan aforesaid time, Lazonick said, location were important advancements happening successful microelectronics and computing and biopharmaceuticals, and that opened nan model for overseas students to say, "We're going to study stem." So what we are perchance connected nan brink of correct now by thwarting aliases revoking these visas for foreigners could virtually impact nan result of American exertion and subject improvement for nan adjacent respective decades.

Katie Drummond: And peculiarly astatine a infinitesimal where, arsenic you said, we're successful this Cold War pinch China, we're successful this AI arms race. You perceive it from nan administration, you publication astir it successful WIRED, you perceive astir it from Sam Altman, different leaders of nan AI industry, this like, "We must hit China. We must hit China." And past worldly for illustration this happens and you consciousness like, "Let's conscionable manus it to them. Let's conscionable springiness it to them." Because we are fundamentally doing that by disincentivizing not only Chinese students, but conscionable superb group from each astir nan world, from coming here, bringing their intellect here, bringing their ideas here. We're fundamentally telling them, "Go location else. Maybe spell to China." And thing I did find fascinating successful that reporting, Lauren, was that nan immense mostly of PhD students from China and India really typically intend to enactment successful nan US aft they graduate. While nan mostly of group from different countries, places for illustration Switzerland and Canada, study really readying to leave, possibly they want to spell backmost to their location country, possibly they want to spell location else, but it's rejecting nan group who are astir committed to staying present and to contributing to caller exertion successful nan United States is simply a definite benignant of choice. And truthful different countries are already trying to return advantage of that. Hong Kong is already trying to pull Harvard students. The UK is mounting up scholarships. There's a batch going connected extracurricular nan United States successful position of fundamentally trying to make nan encephalon drain hap for us. Our nonaccomplishment is each of their gain. But erstwhile you put it successful nan discourse of this AI title and nan US and China of it all, it feels for illustration what we are doing is distinctly disadvantageous for america successful this moment. Unless you some disagree and deliberation I'm missing something.

Lauren Goode: No, we ever opportunity connected this podcast, it would beryllium bully if we vehemently disagreed pinch each different because it would create tension. But I deliberation successful this case, we are each aligned connected this.

Michael Calore: Yeah. This scrutiny complete overseas nationals, it doesn't conscionable extremity astatine academia, of course. It besides extends into nan workforce present successful nan US and activity visas. Lauren, you precocious reported connected really nan process to get an H-1B visa has go much difficult recently. Can you show america a small spot astir what H-1B visas are and why they matter truthful overmuch to nan tech manufacture successful particular?

Lauren Goode: Sure, yeah. So H-1B visas are activity visas that are granted for specialty occupations. They're typically valid for 3 years. They tin beryllium extended successful immoderate cases. This type of visa was first introduced successful 1990 arsenic portion of a broader migration act. And nan thought is that it's expected to thief employers prosecute group pinch specialty skills that they mightiness not different get from nan talent excavation that already exists successful nan US. And nan H-1B is simply a spot of a arguable visa. Even conscionable saying, truthful you tin prosecute group extracurricular of nan US because location are group who don't person that skillset here, people prompts nan mobility for immoderate people, "Wait, why are we not educating and training group successful nan US to person those jobs?" But fundamentally what I was starting to perceive from migration attorneys who I was speaking to is that nan requests for evidence, RFEs, had changeable up since Trump took agency successful January of this year. Typically, erstwhile a personification is applying aliases petitioning for an H-1B, their lawyer submits a bunch of paperwork connected their behalf and that typically will see resumes, awards, letters of prestige, letters of proposal from colleagues and friends and that benignant of thing. You fundamentally person to put together this packet to beryllium that you're worthy of this specialty visa. And past sometimes it would get bounced backmost and USCIS would inquire for much requests for evidence. In this case, a batch of visa applications are being sent back. There are a batch much RFEs aliases requests for grounds for applicants. And that's thing that 4 different migration attorneys I said to said they're seeing happening. It's besides not conscionable happening crossed H-1B. There's different type of visa called nan O-1 Extraordinary Ability visas. Once again, this is simply a specialty visa. A batch of tech entrepreneurs, engineers, and founders alike will travel present nether nan O-1 visa and folks successful that world are starting to opportunity that they're getting pushback connected their applications arsenic well. All of this, it's instilling fearfulness amongst immoderate entrepreneurs and tech workers successful nan Valley, and it's creating a ambiance of uncertainty wherever group who seemed truthful committed and excited to travel present and build their companies present and lend to nan technological situation present are now rethinking that because of what's going connected pinch visa applications.

Katie Drummond: Ugh. That is truthful bleak. 66% of group moving successful tech successful Silicon Valley are calved extracurricular of nan US. That is conscionable an astonishing number to deliberation astir that being astatine risk.

Lauren Goode: Yep. We're talking astir nan rank and record successful a sense, but besides conscionable look astatine immoderate of nan CEOs-

Katie Drummond: Yeah, look astatine nan leadership.

Lauren Goode: Of nan companies we're talking about. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella, and I deliberation nan most... Should we talk astir nan astir evident one?

Katie Drummond: I was going to say, conscionable look astatine Elon Musk.

Lauren Goode: Yes.

Katie Drummond: What an world occurrence communicative he is.

Lauren Goode: Yes.

Katie Drummond: What a occurrence he has been for nan United States of America. I will say, nan H-1B visa programme is not perfect. It's surely been criticized for not being a adjacent strategy aliases a adjacent lottery, but contempt nan truth that this is an imperfect system, nary of this really feels for illustration an attack to hole immoderate of these problems aliases challenges, it's much conscionable creating other adversity and uncertainty astir a process that's already very lengthy and very expensive.

Michael Calore: So these challenges to nan visa exertion person ramped up recently, but we're already seeing nan effects of this, right?

Lauren Goode: Yeah, this is thing that's harder to quantify correct now because these visa policies are conscionable getting put successful place. Everything's conscionable changing. But I deliberation we tin suffice it by saying that nan folks that we're talking to successful Silicon Valley who are either present connected a visa aliases they were hoping to enactment connected an extended visa aliases they were reasoning of possibly coming present and we're moving pinch attorneys to get that process started are now conscionable reconsidering everything. You're already throwing yourself into a beautiful uncertain world erstwhile you determine to motorboat a startup. You're choosing difficult mode for yourself erstwhile you do that. So now throwing this uncertainty into nan operation and reasoning like, "Am I really still going to beryllium capable to beryllium present successful 3 years if that's really agelong it takes maine to really make a merchandise aliases build up a profitable business aliases raise my adjacent backing information aliases something?" And if you can't spot beyond that, I don't spot really you realistically opportunity like, "Oh, nan US seems for illustration a bully stake correct now."

Katie Drummond: It conscionable underscores really systemic and long-lasting this is going to be. Even if this were six months of bad national argumentation and someway nan management wakes up overnight and flips a move and we spot a batch of this unit and further scrutiny and adversity astir immigration, astir H-1B visas ease, location has already been truthful overmuch harm done. We are going to consciousness this successful this state for specified a agelong time.

Michael Calore: One of nan point astir migration argumentation that we person to talk astir is thing that our workfellow David Gilbert has reported connected for WIRED, and that is, arsenic portion of a reorganization of nan State Department, nan Trump management is creating an agency of remigration. And successful very elemental terms, remigration is an migration argumentation embraced by extremists that calls for nan removal of migrants including non-assimilated citizens. What do we make of this?

Katie Drummond: So I talked a small spot earlier astir being amazed that Marco Rubio announcing that enhanced societal media scrutiny. I was amazed that that wasn't much of an outrage, that didn't get much coverage. This is moreover much utmost successful that context, and it is simply a genuinely shocking improvement successful this administration's warfare connected anyone who is not a achromatic American. That is fundamentally what this is. I was shocked erstwhile I publication this communicative past week and realized that this should beryllium beforehand page news for each news statement successful nan United States, and someway it conscionable wasn't.

Lauren Goode: So nan full thought down this is that they want to create a achromatic ethnostate successful this portion of nan world.

Katie Drummond: That is our knowing of it, yeah. There is simply a agelong history to nan thought of remigration and it really comes together done nan lens of mega, it was coming successful nan administration's first word arsenic well. You had nan Muslim ban, you had this thought of building a separator wall, and I deliberation what's truthful different this clip from 2016, there's a batch that's different this time, I deliberation large image arsenic we person seen, what's different is that this clip nan management really intends business. They're buttoned up, they're present to get nan occupation done. And truthful it's nan velocity and nan strength astatine which these ideas, this very racist thought of remigration is going from conscionable being thing that's done successful a scattershot measurement that is now showing up arsenic a tactical circumstantial argumentation connection that is being released successful charismatic authorities documents. It's conscionable a very different benignant of attack and it feels overmuch much real. It is overmuch much real. And it's happening truthful quickly and amid I deliberation truthful overmuch different news that group are conscionable not seeing that it's happening, and that's really scary.

Lauren Goode: And what happens excessively I deliberation is that location are each different kinds of migration policies we're talking astir present and if you're not paying adjacent attraction you mightiness conflate them. There's a quality betwixt nan asylum process being unopen down and nan Aliens Enemy Act being overhauled pinch what whitethorn beryllium going connected pinch student and overseas visitant visas, Extraordinary Ability visas, which is different from what's being projected pinch this remigration document. And a batch of it is happening nether nan guise of, "This is amended for nationalist security." There are of people going to beryllium immoderate instances successful which that is true. For example, Stanford Review reported, I deliberation it was a fewer weeks agone now, that they'd go alert of Chinese nationals really trying to spy connected Stanford University and its students. They'd purported to beryllium different students. This benignant of point does happen, location are nations that are our adversaries that want to get accusation from nan United States and wield it successful nefarious ways, but for nan astir part, nan Trump management is putting immigrants successful this elephantine bucket and creating this world successful which they're each a threat to nan United States. And that is perfectly not nan case.

Michael Calore: Yeah, these policies are going to evidently style nan civilization of this state and they're going to style nan business that is done successful this country. But of course, they are perfectly going to style nan exertion industry. So let's return a break and erstwhile we travel correct back, we'll talk astir nan effects that these policies will person connected tech. Welcome backmost to Uncanny Valley. We've been talking astir nan Trump administration's migration policies and really they could style nan early of tech improvement successful nan us, and I'm funny to cognize really tech companies and workers person been reacting to these measures truthful far.

Lauren Goode: I would opportunity nan number 1 point I've heard straight from folks is that they are scaling backmost connected their recreation to conferences, whether they're academics aliases tech workers. And that whitethorn person a small spot much to do pinch what has been going connected successful immoderate intermittent cases astatine nan border, of group getting detained astatine nan border. But besides group are reasoning astir nan position of their visa correct now and whether they're an American national aliases they're present connected a visa. Tech conferences and world conferences are conscionable a portion of this world. Katie and I were conscionable astatine 1 successful Vancouver. And truthful if you person concerns astir being fto backmost into nan United States aft traveling, you whitethorn diminution to spell to one. And nan aforesaid goes for universities. I deliberation Brown University urged its world unit and students to postpone immoderate plans to recreation extracurricular of nan US retired of an abundance of caution.

Katie Drummond: It's absorbing to deliberation astir nan flip broadside of that because for astir of nan tech manufacture and nan quality beings who activity successful that industry, this is simply a very scary thing. It's affecting really they do their jobs, it's affecting whether aliases not they travel. And past you person nan flip broadside of it, which is wherever location are definite parts of nan tech manufacture who are really benefiting from these caller policies. And I deliberation Palantir is astir apt nan champion illustration of that. So Palantir is nan brainchild of Peter Thiel, evidently a mega philanthropist to nan GOP party. And Palantir is really making it rainfall pinch nan Trump administration, and they are benefiting tremendously from these policies and from DOGE efforts and management efforts to centralize and unify information astir American citizens and astir immigrants to nan administration. God knows what you could usage each of that accusation for erstwhile it's centralized. Palantir precocious won a $30 cardinal no-bid statement to build ImmigrationOS, which fundamentally provides real-time information astir nan whereabouts of migrants and astir deportations. Palantir evidently has worked pinch nan US authorities for a very agelong time. They've had a statement pinch ICE since 2011, truthful that's almost 15 years ago. But we are really seeing nan surveillance authorities that Palantir helps support turn exponentially and turn very quickly arsenic a consequence of nan administration's intends astir migration for 1 thing, but besides conscionable their intends to fundamentally guidelines up and tally an authoritarian authorities that would effect not only immigrants but US citizens arsenic well.

Michael Calore: So immoderate tech companies are evidently seeing a paycheck opportunity successful these migration policies, but we can't opportunity that nan tech manufacture is operating arsenic immoderate benignant of block, for illustration they're not lockstep ideologically aligned pinch nan migration policies. And a batch of cardinal tech leaders person been outspoken astir nan truth that they're not excessively happy pinch these policies, right?

Lauren Goode: Yeah. It's honestly a small spot confusing. Someone for illustration Elon Musk has successful nan past been successful support of nan H-1B. He employs much than 1,000 group connected that type of visa. He moreover utilized it himself successful his early years successful nan US, and he has successful nan past tweeted successful support of immigrants being successful Silicon Valley and contributing to nan system here. More precocious though, he has called for a betterment connected it, and he's not unsocial successful that. Same pinch Marc Andreessen, evidently 1 of nan astir vocal people, influential group successful Silicon Valley. Surprisingly, they've sewage immoderate absorbing bedfellows. The Democrat Ro Khanna of California, Vermont's Bernie Sanders, they're besides calling for a betterment of nan H-1B program. It goes backmost to what Katie was saying earlier, that location person been immoderate critiques of H-1B. There's been a batch of backlash to nan program, and it's difficult to cognize sometimes whether it's coming from this benignant of vitriolic aliases perchance racist spot astir really group consciousness astir immigrants versus, "No, I'm really successful support of this because it's bully for nan US system and nan tech industry, but nan process is broken."

Katie Drummond: To maine correct now what we're looking astatine successful nan twelvemonth 2025 is conscionable portion of this larger inclination of tech leaders staying silent aliases muting their disapproval aliases possibly posting thing connected X, but mostly staying silent erstwhile it comes to politics, erstwhile it comes to governmental issues, astatine slightest publicly. We don't cognize what's happening down nan scenes, what kinds of lobbying efforts are going into trying to sway nan management 1 measurement aliases different erstwhile it comes to H-1B visas, erstwhile it comes to nan value of superb group from astir nan world being capable to study and activity successful nan United States and successful nan tech industry. But publically for sure, we are not seeing that really robust guidance connected nan portion of nan tech industry. And that is surely strategical because these guys cognize that this clip nan management intends business, they request to play ball, they request to activity pinch this administration. And truthful we tin only dream that down nan scenes location are much vigorous discussions happening than what we're seeing play retired publicly.

Michael Calore: It's distressing to maine that nan disconnect is truthful large present because we really person to underscore really important of a affirmative domiciled migration has played successful nan maturation of nan tech industry. And successful Silicon Valley successful particular, for illustration Lauren you were talking astir earlier, immoderate of nan largest companies for illustration Google and Microsoft person each had either founders aliases co-founders aliases CEOs who are first aliases second-generation immigrants. And if you look astatine a database correct now of nan country's existent startups that are worthy much than a cardinal dollars, much than half of them person an migrant founder. Yeah. So nan longterm stakes of keeping talented researchers and engineers and businesspeople retired of nan state look deeply, profoundly consequential.

Lauren Goode: It's besides conscionable not a zero-sum game. If nan tech manufacture continues to grow, presumably location would beryllium capable room for having high-skilled American workers and high-skilled overseas nationals moving together.

Michael Calore: As it ever has been. Okay, let's return different break and we'll travel correct backmost pinch recommendations. Thank you some for a awesome conversation. We are going to displacement gears and talk astir thing wholly different, which is our ain individual desires and loves. We're going to do recommendations. Who wants to spell first?

Katie Drummond: My recommendations. It's been a engaged time, truthful I consciousness for illustration I'm a small spot constricted connected hobby activities, but a book I conscionable vanished that I do recommend, Barry Diller's memoir. If you're not acquainted pinch Barry Diller, I judge he is now nan president of IAC. But a long-time executive, invented nan modern-day Hollywood attack to movie-making. It was great, truthful I highly urge that. But my different proposal is that past nighttime I was reasoning astir what to person for dinner, and I made an omelet, and I haven't had an omelet successful a while. The omelet had a reddish pepper, it had spinach, and it had shredded cheese, and it was conscionable a really bully reminder if you're reasoning astir what to person for meal tonight, a bully omelet, immoderate toast pinch gallic butter, a tin of seltzer, you mightiness conscionable beryllium each set. That and a book.

Michael Calore: Lauren, what is your recommendation?

Lauren Goode: My proposal is aft you make your meal for dinner, you should cheque retired nan Brazilian movie I'm Still Here. When I was flying location from Vancouver past week I started watching it connected nan level and did not decorativeness it. It was 1 of those things wherever I went home, unpacked, and past instantly bought nan movie because I was like, "I request to decorativeness watching it."

Katie Drummond: Wow.

Lauren Goode: And I loved it truthful overmuch that I knew I wanted to ain it. It's beautiful. It's beautifully done. It's based connected a existent communicative of a Brazilian congressman who is abducted during nan subject dictatorship. In Brazil that was astatine its highest successful 1970, 1971. And really it's astir his family too. It's astir his wife, who's this incredibly beardown female successful character, and their 5 children. And because it's nan 1970s, nan world is conscionable different. Technology is limited, they person a family camcorder and that's really it. And nan kids are conscionable moving astir successful their swimsuits each time agelong and things conscionable consciousness simpler, but besides complicated. And location are these scenes successful nan opening wherever group are fundamentally being rounded up by nan subject and you perceive families having these conversations of, "Should we enactment aliases should we go?" It's chilling, but it's a beautifully done movie and truthful I highly urge I'm Still Here. All right, what's your recommendation?

Michael Calore: I'm present to show nan group to watch Mountainhead. This is simply a fabrication movie that feels closer.

Lauren Goode: Just erstwhile I thought we were getting distant from nan tech bros.

Michael Calore: It's a fabrication movie from Jesse Armstrong who is nan creator of Succession. This is simply a movie that he did for HBO. We're conscionable calling it HBO. Everybody woody pinch it. It's a bro fest. It's astir 4 tech founders who stitchery astatine nan Mountain retreat for a societal play to drawback up. There's a strict nary deals policy, but of people that argumentation goes by nan wayside arsenic soon arsenic things commencement happening. The 4 main actors are Steve Carell, Jason Schwartzman, Cory Michael Smith, and Ramy Youssef. And if you liked nan witty backmost and distant and nan weird absurdist play successful Succession, there's plentifulness of that here. It's besides very overmuch of nan infinitesimal because nan backstory that happens during nan movie is that nan world is embroiled successful a bunch of governmental chaos because of AI DeepFakes connected societal media that are very inflammatory politically.

Lauren Goode: Great. So besides based connected a existent communicative is what you're saying.

Michael Calore: Yeah.

Katie Drummond: I do want to watch that. I would for illustration to watch it. I will watch it.

Michael Calore: It's not precisely a bully time, but it is simply a rewarding time.

Lauren Goode: I besides will watch Mountainhead, but I'm really wondering, and Katie, while we person you connected nan podcast, if I tin conscionable inquire you, does that count arsenic work? Because I question and reply those-

Katie Drummond: No.

Lauren Goode: Bros each nan time, and truthful I tin conscionable return 2 hours during nan time and watch that, right? It's work.

Katie Drummond: Abso-fucking-lutely not.

Lauren Goode: All right, we answered that.

Katie Drummond: We judge did.

Lauren Goode: Ooh.

Michael Calore: Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley. If you for illustration what you heard today, make judge to travel our show and complaint it connected your podcast app of choice. If you'd for illustration to get successful touch pinch america pinch immoderate questions, comments, aliases show suggestions, constitute to america astatine uncannyvalley@WIRED.com. Today's show is produced by Adriana Tapia and Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal mixed this episode. Jake Lummus was our New York Studio engineer. Matt Giles fact-checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Katie Drummond is WIRED's world editorial director. And Chris Bannon is nan caput of Global Audio.